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Post by zikzak on Jun 9, 2019 19:03:21 GMT
Let me see if I understand what we're talking about here. My understanding is (a) it would take a non-trivial amount of one time IRL work necessary to do the initial new website setup, (b) there would some IRL and recurring not user facing "admin" work related to keeping the 1's and 0's flowing, seeing to backups, IP addresses etc/etc, (c) there would be some IRL and recurring user facing "admin" work such as creating new forums, setting up user under-titles etc/etc, (d) whatever is meant by "fund raising", (e) possibly some other stuff I am missing. My vague understanding is that we are only discussing (a) and (b) here. Am I correct? There is also (f) the ongoing development of the site and any outreach or growth initiatives. I still very much believe that if those things aren't done then there is no point in any of this. We can just stay here. If that's the case, wouldn't a way to move forward, be for us Unstuckers to (pass a motion to) put out a bid for a service to do (a and b) for (X) period of time. Then you could submit a bid saying you'd take on this service for $$$ to be paid upfront, and $$$ monthly. Then us Unstuckers would pick a winning bid, then appropriate the funds to pay that vendor. You as a vendor, like any other service provider, would have the legalistic CYA of stopping to performing this service, if us Unstuckers stopped paying our bills. My flat rate fee would be significantly higher than what I would expect to gain from a percentage stake, because the standard deviation is large relative to the absolute value of the expectation. I think we all agree that the EV is ~beer money and people will be working far below their market rate, but if I'm going to put a lot of work into building something and the little ball actually manages to land on 32 red, I want to get paid. |
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Post by kerowo on Jun 9, 2019 19:03:30 GMT
The only problem I would have with "returning significant chunk of net revenue to myself" is where donations come into the picture. I don't mind donations covering a salary, but just being funneled directly into your pockets makes this seem like buying gold or selling MAGA hats... I'm not sure I understand the distinction between a salary and returning some portion of net revenue. Fair market value for any time anybody puts into this is likely to be far greater than any actual revenue raised. Wait, wat... I thought we were only talking about the legalistic liability regarding hosting a simple website. We haven't been talking about "raising funds" at all so far. So two things... (1) as far as I understand things, there is no reason that hosting a website (and whatever legal liability that might go along with that) needs to be directly tied up with "fund raising". Aren't these distinct thingees that should be handled separately? If us on this committee need to consider "fund raising", in addition to the web hosting, (2) we're going to need some explanation, and have a full discussion, about exactly what is intended by "fund raising" here. If people want me to take on the workload of administering a web forum and the legal liability that comes with it, all by myself, without some sort of financial lease or ownership stake, my answer is no. The situation I'm trying to avoid is one where we raise 24x the monthly run rate for the site and whoever has the keys bails after a month with the rest of the "revenue." Other than trusting the person we give the keys to I don't know a way around this and it puts us back at faffing over the details. To be clear, I don't think you would do that, but it would be nice for safe guards. And it would have been nicer if Cuse had just said here is our new site, I'm going to own it and let the community run it, here is my venmo if you want to pitch in, we're working on a Patreon account for subscriptions to get us over the hump. Accepting resumes for assistant admins and mods. |
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Post by kerowo on Jun 9, 2019 19:06:26 GMT
My flat rate fee would be significantly higher than what I would expect to gain from a percentage stake, because the standard deviation is large relative to the absolute value of the expectation. I think we all agree that the EV is ~beer money and people will be working far below their market rate, but if I'm going to put a lot of work into building something and the little ball actually manages to land on 32 red, I want to get paid. This attitude is going to kill us and I'm not all that against it. |
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Post by zikzak on Jun 9, 2019 19:07:27 GMT
The situation I'm trying to avoid is one where we raise 24x the monthly run rate for the site and whoever has the keys bails after a month with the rest of the "revenue." Other than trusting the person we give the keys to I don't know a way around this and it puts us back at faffing over the details. To be clear, I don't think you would do that, but it would be nice for safe guards. And it would have been nicer if Cuse had just said here is our new site, I'm going to own it and let the community run it, here is my venmo if you want to pitch in, we're working on a Patreon account for subscriptions to get us over the hump. Accepting resumes for assistant admins and mods. That's part of the reason I think it's better to set it up with ads and maybe patreon or whatever rather than asking for big sums up front. You limit the amount of damage one bad actor can do. |
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Post by microbet on Jun 9, 2019 19:16:30 GMT
No one should be taking donations above what is needed (may or may not include compensation). Like any fundraising should be "we need $x now for this purpose" and then collect whatever pledges necessary and hold the rest for the next time. No one has to have the keys to a year's worth of pledge money at one time.
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Post by zikzak on Jun 9, 2019 19:23:15 GMT
This attitude is going to kill us and I'm not all that against it. I would still hugely prefer some sort of co-op model or non-profit or whatever with a large number of people all doing a little bit to help, but realistically we're looking at a situation where a very small number of people are going to be doing all the work. That's a real job, with real responsibilities. There needs to be an incentive structure in place or nothing will ever get done. |
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zan nen
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Post by zan nen on Jun 9, 2019 19:58:36 GMT
There is also (f) the ongoing development of the site and any outreach or growth initiatives... Two things... (1) Aren't my (a and b) above completely separate issues from my (d) and your (f)? If not, what am I missing? If so, why don't we separate the separate issues out? Why would we necessarily want the same vendor doing (a and b) for us as would we want doing (d or f) for us?. Why don't we work right now solving (a and b), migrate to the new website, then discuss (d or f) over there? (2) I'm not sure what the difference is between my (d) or your (f) might be. I've never been sure what (d) actually entails anyways. I agree, and I think it is obvious, that if Unstuck isn't destined to atrophy and die, we really need to advertise its existence to prospective posters. I think it might really help if this was fleshed out with some examples, and phrased as a business model. Examples might be... * I really think advertising by google key words is a good idea. I propose that I spend 20 hours researching how they work, and what might work for us, as well as going through the motions to place those ads. My proposal is that I get appropriated $400 for ad buys up front, and during those months where the total Unstuck revenue stream totals over $1000 I get appropriated $50, up to a maximum of $400 or three years (whichever comes first). * I really think adding some unique user facing features to our forum software is a good idea. In particular, I propose I spend up to ____ hours adding features ___________, ________, and ________. I propose that, in consideration of that labor, that I get appropriated on a monthly basis ___% of the total Unstuck revenue over $____, up to a maximum of $_______ or ______ months (whichever comes first). * I really think selling Unstuck t-shirts is a good idea. In particular, I propose spending ___ hours creating some artwork to submit for approval by us Unstuckers. Upon approval, I'll front the costs and spend up to ___ hours to have the t-shirts made, and to do fulfillment. I'll expect appropriations for the production and shipping cost, and in consideration of the work done to create, inventory, and fulfill the shirts, and in consideration of the risk involved ending up with unsold inventory of the shirts, of $____ per shirt, paid Net 30. After ____ months, this deal well expire, and I'll end up "eating" any unsold inventory. |
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Post by gregorio on Jun 9, 2019 20:09:10 GMT
zik, you're obviously doing the bulk/all of the tech work on your own right now and seem to be capable of doing everything that needs to happen to get the site ready. You mention you'd prefer some sort of co-op model or non-profit or whatever with a large number of people all doing a little bit to help. If you were to have other people doing a little bit to help, do you have preferences for how that would happen? If people did step up, what would you like your role to be?
This isn't really help, but I think at the minimum you'd like more feedback about what you've done to confirm people are happy with it and that their silence indicates approval rather than apathy, and you would welcome ideas or suggestions for changes, improvements, additions w/e, so that you have some input or direction from some other people in the community and don't feel like this is all on you to design and implement.
Right now you are project manager, designer and lead/sole developer and probably a bunch of other things. My impression is that there are people who are willing to help, but they don't really know what's needed. If you were to have help, are you comfortable maintaining a project manager-type role and directing/delegating/assigning/suggesting tasks to people who want to start helping? Are there specific things you'd like help with? Would you prefer people to take the initiative to offer specific help?
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Post by microbet on Jun 9, 2019 20:25:21 GMT
It hasn't exactly been possible for anyone else to do much work on zikzak's discourse setup. I know some of us are admins, but it's not like a bunch of people could be playing with design at the same time.
On a new site where a few people had root we should obviously divide tasks and not all try to do everything together.
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Post by gregorio on Jun 9, 2019 20:28:41 GMT
Right, that's why if zik wants help, he would need to direct/delegate/assign/suggest tasks to people who want to start helping. Or someone would have to take the initiative and say, I have experience developing wordpress sites, can I mock up something that incorporates Discourse and see what you think? Maybe the answer is no, I'm fine working on it for now, or, it's easier for me to keep doing what I'm doing. Or maybe the answer is hells yeah.
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Post by microbet on Jun 9, 2019 20:44:34 GMT
I've done a WordPress (woocommerce) site.
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Post by gregorio on Jun 9, 2019 21:15:30 GMT
I have a WordPress blog css'd up to match a bootstrap site
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Post by microbet on Jun 9, 2019 21:19:52 GMT
That's cool. Bootstrap blows. Not the css/look, but having a billion lines of unused stuff.
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Post by gregorio on Jun 9, 2019 21:23:18 GMT
Bootstrap is amazing. Having predefined classes to do almost anything you want saves billions of hours.
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Post by zikzak on Jun 9, 2019 21:31:18 GMT
zik, you're obviously doing the bulk/all of the tech work on your own right now and seem to be capable of doing everything that needs to happen to get the site ready. You mention you'd prefer some sort of co-op model or non-profit or whatever with a large number of people all doing a little bit to help. If you were to have other people doing a little bit to help, do you have preferences for how that would happen? If people did step up, what would you like your role to be?
This isn't really help, but I think at the minimum you'd like more feedback about what you've done to confirm people are happy with it and that their silence indicates approval rather than apathy, and you would welcome ideas or suggestions for changes, improvements, additions w/e, so that you have some input or direction from some other people in the community and don't feel like this is all on you to design and implement.
Right now you are project manager, designer and lead/sole developer and probably a bunch of other things. My impression is that there are people who are willing to help, but they don't really know what's needed. If you were to have help, are you comfortable maintaining a project manager-type role and directing/delegating/assigning/suggesting tasks to people who want to start helping? Are there specific things you'd like help with? Would you prefer people to take the initiative to offer specific help?
I've already created an entire to-do list. It got bumped today with a contribution for the first time in over three weeks, so lostrich is pretty awesome imo because we need graphics and logos. I'm not sure what people need from me to tackle any of that other stuff. Like, where are we hosting and what package are we going with? That needs to be decided. Has anybody looked into SSL (I have)? If anybody wants to help and feels like they can cross anything off that list for us, please do so. A great example is what lodenpants did with github. He identified a need and delivered a turn key solution. That was fantastic. Right, that's why if zik wants help, he would need to direct/delegate/assign/suggest tasks to people who want to start helping. Or someone would have to take the initiative and say, I have experience developing wordpress sites, can I mock up something that incorporates Discourse and see what you think? Maybe the answer is no, I'm fine working on it for now, or, it's easier for me to keep doing what I'm doing. Or maybe the answer is hells yeah. My answer would be hells yeah, but on a higher level of wtf does the wordpress site actually do. The integration is pretty easy and there are plenty of working examples with Discourse out there. What I've been trying to wrap my noodle around for the past week+ is why is it there and how does it function. I have some ideas, but it would be incredibly helpful if other people could say what they wanted from it and how they think it could help the community. Along with the fun fun fun issues of ownership and revenue sharing, which will likely be even more complicated than what we're dealing with for the forum. |
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Post by microbet on Jun 9, 2019 21:51:44 GMT
At least once we've gotten to the point where I thought we could get moving and you (zz) have said you don't really want to do anything on the site until ownership has been worked out. So, waiting for that. And we don't really know that Discourse is what will happen. If it is going to happen it's going to have to be effected pretty deftly. There will be complaints.
Imo, we're on the verge of a minor admin change. We could see if even that can happen and what impact it might have before rehashing everything.
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Post by zikzak on Jun 10, 2019 0:19:56 GMT
Two things... (1) Aren't my (a and b) above completely separate issues from my (d) and your (f)? If not, what am I missing? If so, why don't we separate the separate issues out? Why would we necessarily want the same vendor doing (a and b) for us as would we want doing (d or f) for us?. Why don't we work right now solving (a and b), migrate to the new website, then discuss (d or f) over there? That's what we're trying to do right now, yes? But I don't think it's realistic to treat all of these issues as discrete, especially not when there are so few of us involved. |
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zan nen
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Post by zan nen on Jun 10, 2019 1:06:31 GMT
That's what we're trying to do right now, yes?... So, just to make sure I understand correctly... you also feel we can migrate to the new website as a first step, then come up with a plan to advertise the availability of the new website as a second step? If so, I suggest we proceed as follows... 1) We read through the forum that has all the old pledges, total them up, and perhaps discount that by, say 75%, to reflect the fact they might not all be collectible now. That's our kitty. 2) Come up with an estimated monthly cost of hosting/etc. Multiply that by, say six, and subtract that from our kitty. 3) Take that number and divide by two, half we'll set aside for our future advertising budget. 4) The other half is our startup and operate for the first six months budget. Let's calculate that number, and then see if yourself, or anyone else or any other group of peeps for that matter, wanna make a bid to take on that work (startup and six months maintenance) within that budget. 5) If we don't get any bids, then it's back to the drawing board. 6) If we do get some bids, and us Unstuckers ratify by site-wide initiative, we're good to go with the migration. |
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Post by zikzak on Jun 10, 2019 1:38:01 GMT
That would not be my preferred way to proceed, but if you and others want to do so I will try to help.
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Post by zikzak on Jun 10, 2019 1:48:40 GMT
A quick skim of the 'I'm willing to help with...' thread comes up with about $1,350 in pledges. I believe additional pledges have been made in other places, but I don't recall where.
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zan nen
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Post by zan nen on Jun 10, 2019 3:15:43 GMT
A quick skim of the 'I'm willing to help with...' thread comes up with about $1,350 in pledges. I believe additional pledges have been made in other places, but I don't recall where. OK VG, TYVM for doing that work. If we imagine that "those other places" would replace the amount of that $1350 that is uncollectable, or that the excitement of the announcement of the new website would trigger enough new pledges to replace that amount, or otherwise talk ourselves into believing we could collect all of $1350, and using a WAG of $50/mo hosting that I've seen others make in one of these threads, I got... $300 for 6-mo hosting fees $525 for an advertising budget $525 for setup and 6-mo labor budget My next two Qs are... 1) Could you give a WAG regarding how many man-hours we are talking about to do the setup, and a WAG of how many man-hours would be needed on average, on a monthly basis, for maintenance? 2) IYO, would anyone, or any group, be willing to take on the man-hours estimated in Q1 for $525 or less? Would you? |
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Post by microbet on Jun 10, 2019 3:50:11 GMT
I don't think this approach is right exactly. I will set up whatever at cost and expect help.
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Post by zikzak on Jun 10, 2019 3:51:20 GMT
$300 for 6-mo hosting fees $525 for an advertising budget $525 for setup and 6-mo labor budget imo buying advertising would be lighting money on fire and I think it would be much better to allocate those funds to the labor budget. I also think $300 is on the high side for hosting and that number could probably be cut in half with our current needs.
1) I'm assuming WAG means wild ass guess? That was my best hit on an acronym search. The answer is, it depends on what you expect in return. I think slumlord level, absolute bare minimums would be a few hours on setup and a couple hours a week on maintenance, tops. But if somebody is going to put in real effort to build a great site that's response to community desires, it's probably a solid part time job of 20+ hours a week.
2) I can't speak for anybody else, but I imagine somebody, somewhere, would be willing to do the slumlord-level version for the revised ~$1,200 budget I detailed above. You could get professionally managed 3rd party hosting for less. Personally, I would not be willing to take on that work at that fixed rate, in part because I know that even if the community just wanted slumlord-level accommodations, I would end up putting in dozens of hours a week anyway because I like building nice things and I care about the community.
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Post by Rexx14 on Jun 10, 2019 4:02:35 GMT
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Post by gregorio on Jun 10, 2019 4:28:51 GMT
What I've been trying to wrap my noodle around for the past week+ is why is it there and how does it function. I have some ideas, but it would be incredibly helpful if other people could say what they wanted from it and how they think it could help the community. Along with the fun fun fun issues of ownership and revenue sharing, which will likely be even more complicated than what we're dealing with for the forum. Off the top of my head, the wordpress site will bring together the various facets of UnstuckPolitics seamlessly into a unique and unified browsing experience for the discerning politics aficionado. Home Forums Articles Blogs Podcasts Organize ShopSure we have forums, but if you're a burgeoning politics blogger tired of only have 2 or 3 people read your posts despite not-stop promoting across your 18 social media sites, UnstuckPolitics is the platform for you. Powered by WP, our site lets you to create your own political blog here, maybe with some customization, but still keeping with the overall site aesthetic, while giving you access to thousands of unique weekly visitors.
Our readers can follow individual blogs, or filter by keyword tags, making it easy for anyone to find your posts that are relevant to them. Already have a blog? Our tech team led by jtheivin will migrate it over to Unstuck whether you want him to or not! And if you really want to get noticed, our Articles section will include long-form piece by our team of political experts, and feature the most popular content from our Blogs section.
Don't want to be confined to the written word? Host your podcast with us. There are over a million active podcasts with over 40 millions episodes produced each year. Did you know the median audience numbers for a podcast episode is three? No wonder nobody is listening to yours. With our engaged user-based, get ready to take your podcast to the next level. Tired of Trump? Sick of Biden your time? Don't just sit there, protest! Or join a cause, attend a rally, or start a movement. Our Organize page helps you connect with like minded people in your community. Or make it a national, or even international campaign with our userbase from around the world. Justice Democrats got there start here and now have seven of their candidates in the House! And check out our UnstuckPolitics shop where you'll find the latest in limited edition microdaughter tees, and UnstuckPolitics branded solar panels. Enter promotion code Warren2020 and save 10%! No rush on any of this; a live beta by the end of the month is fine. |
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Post by microbet on Jun 10, 2019 4:31:28 GMT
"whether you want him to or not" -- lol
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zan nen
Full Member
MissileDog/Shame Trolly !!!1!
Posts: 147
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Post by zan nen on Jun 10, 2019 4:44:09 GMT
imo buying advertising would be lighting money on fire and I think it would be much better to allocate those funds to the labor budget. I also think $300 is on the high side for hosting and that number could probably be cut in half with our current needs... What I meant by "advertising" here is all things related to acquiring a steady stream of new posters to Unstuck, and retaining those posters we have. My bad for the imprecise wording. Buying adverts might be a part of that. In house production of pod casts that serve as an invitation to check out unstuckpolitics.com might be a part of that. T-shirts might be a part of that. Adding new wiz-bang features to the forum that entice lurkers to become posters might be a part of that. Organized attempts to "trend" #unstuck might be a part of that. Heck, IRL flash-mobs holding #unstuck signs could be a part of that. I feel we are in complete agreement that this kinda activity needs to take place to ensure Unstuck isn't doomed to a future of atrophy and extinction. Like any other work like thingee IRL, to get anything done, a commitment of man-hours and $$$ will be required. My point here was to simply prioritize setting some of our pledged money aside to get this work done. This is exactly what I'm thinking of for the first, say six months: The functional equivalent of what we have here at ProBoards, except (1) it's already way cooler, because it's Discourse based, (2) we aren't subjecting ourselves to advertising anymore, at least for a while, and (3) it's all our "car" now, those who are interested can look under the hood, we can all get comfortable with the controls, etc/etc. During that six months, we can figure out how we are going to do/fund/organize the "acquiring new posters" work I just outlined above, and then ramp-up the workload, budget, organization, etc. to accomplish that. |
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Post by zikzak on Jun 10, 2019 11:47:37 GMT
This is exactly what I'm thinking of for the first, say six months: The functional equivalent of what we have here at ProBoards, except (1) it's already way cooler, because it's Discourse based, (2) we aren't subjecting ourselves to advertising anymore, at least for a while, and (3) it's all our "car" now, those who are interested can look under the hood, we can all get comfortable with the controls, etc/etc. During that six months, we can figure out how we are going to do/fund/organize the "acquiring new posters" work I just outlined above, and then ramp-up the workload, budget, organization, etc. to accomplish that. I kinda have a feeling that it wouldn't be Discourse based, and that nobody is going to be interested in looking under the hood or putting effort into growing the user base. It is what we already have here, but only without ads (for now). You're handing all of the pledged money to one person, up front, and there is no mechanism to reward anybody for their time except whoever has the winning bid. We already have a 6 week preview of what happens under a volunteer model. It isn't inspiring. |
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Post by zikzak on Jun 10, 2019 12:23:49 GMT
Off the top of my head, the wordpress site will bring together the various facets of UnstuckPolitics seamlessly into a unique and unified browsing experience for the discerning politics aficionado. Home Forums Articles Blogs Podcasts Organize ShopSure we have forums, but if you're a burgeoning politics blogger tired of only have 2 or 3 people read your posts despite not-stop promoting across your 18 social media sites, UnstuckPolitics is the platform for you. Powered by WP, our site lets you to create your own political blog here, maybe with some customization, but still keeping with the overall site aesthetic, while giving you access to thousands of unique weekly visitors.
Our readers can follow individual blogs, or filter by keyword tags, making it easy for anyone to find your posts that are relevant to them. Already have a blog? Our tech team led by jtheivin will migrate it over to Unstuck whether you want him to or not! And if you really want to get noticed, our Articles section will include long-form piece by our team of political experts, and feature the most popular content from our Blogs section. Don't want to be confined to the written word? Host your podcast with us. There are over a million active podcasts with over 40 millions episodes produced each year. Did you know the median audience numbers for a podcast episode is three? No wonder nobody is listening to yours. With our engaged user-based, get ready to take your podcast to the next level. Tired of Trump? Sick of Biden your time? Don't just sit there, protest! Or join a cause, attend a rally, or start a movement. Our Organize page helps you connect with like minded people in your community. Or make it a national, or even international campaign with our userbase from around the world. Justice Democrats got there start here and now have seven of their candidates in the House! And check out our UnstuckPolitics shop where you'll find the latest in limited edition microdaughter tees, and UnstuckPolitics branded solar panels. Enter promotion code Warren2020 and save 10%! No rush on any of this; a live beta by the end of the month is fine. That's not bad. My thinking was more along the lines of that platform in the background, with the front face being a resource for us. Like crowd-sourced news and data aggregation. If it's useful to the people who already use the forums, it would be useful to others as well and bring in new users. There is also the option of multiple satelite sites linked to the main forums, each with their own focus and operating model. |
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Post by microbet on Jun 10, 2019 12:31:39 GMT
Sounds familiar
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