zan nen
Full Member
MissileDog/Shame Trolly !!!1!
Posts: 147
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Post by zan nen on Jun 10, 2019 15:37:26 GMT
I kinda have a feeling that it wouldn't be Discourse based... Why not? My understanding is that (a) the main point of migrating to a new website is so that we can have wiz-bang cool user facing features we didn't have at 2+2 and don't have here, and (b) the Tech Committee has officially chosen Discourse. I wasn't suggesting we hand all the pledge money up front to one person or one group. I was suggesting instead that about half of the pledge money be set aside for the various "promote the site" activities we are considering. |
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Post by microbet on Jun 10, 2019 16:23:16 GMT
Discourse is mainly about style. The thread navigation is a bit different (and better imo once you get used to it), but the user facing features being discussed will be possible with pretty much any alternative.
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Post by microbet on Jun 10, 2019 16:51:46 GMT
I put up another poll for forum software. Please take a look. There's still a poll up about expanding admins. Despite the general dispair, I think we will be moving forward in the near future.
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Post by gregorio on Jun 10, 2019 18:51:28 GMT
Off the top of my head, the wordpress site will bring together the various facets of UnstuckPolitics seamlessly into a unique and unified browsing experience for the discerning politics aficionado. Home Forums Articles Blogs Podcasts Organize ShopSure we have forums, but if you're a burgeoning politics blogger tired of only have 2 or 3 people read your posts despite not-stop promoting across your 18 social media sites, UnstuckPolitics is the platform for you. Powered by WP, our site lets you to create your own political blog here, maybe with some customization, but still keeping with the overall site aesthetic, while giving you access to thousands of unique weekly visitors.
Our readers can follow individual blogs, or filter by keyword tags, making it easy for anyone to find your posts that are relevant to them. Already have a blog? Our tech team led by jtheivin will migrate it over to Unstuck whether you want him to or not! And if you really want to get noticed, our Articles section will include long-form piece by our team of political experts, and feature the most popular content from our Blogs section. Don't want to be confined to the written word? Host your podcast with us. There are over a million active podcasts with over 40 millions episodes produced each year. Did you know the median audience numbers for a podcast episode is three? No wonder nobody is listening to yours. With our engaged user-based, get ready to take your podcast to the next level. Tired of Trump? Sick of Biden your time? Don't just sit there, protest! Or join a cause, attend a rally, or start a movement. Our Organize page helps you connect with like minded people in your community. Or make it a national, or even international campaign with our userbase from around the world. Justice Democrats got there start here and now have seven of their candidates in the House! And check out our UnstuckPolitics shop where you'll find the latest in limited edition microdaughter tees, and UnstuckPolitics branded solar panels. Enter promotion code Warren2020 and save 10%! No rush on any of this; a live beta by the end of the month is fine. That's not bad. My thinking was more along the lines of that platform in the background, with the front face being a resource for us. Like crowd-sourced news and data aggregation. If it's useful to the people who already use the forums, it would be useful to others as well and bring in new users. Trump debates are what brought me to RIPolitics but it was the links to articles and tweets that kept me around. Arguing about politics doesn't appeal to me at all, but the forum was a great resource for stuff I cased about. I like your idea for the front page. I guess there are curated news sites or you can personalize google news and stuff like that, but I never use that ****, but would definiitely browse a front page like that on Unstuck. I bet there's even a local weather plugin.
And god damn this current software is awful. If you son't want nested quotes, fine, but don't show the entire quote in the Preview/BBCode only to not display it.
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Post by zikzak on Jun 10, 2019 23:39:43 GMT
Trump debates are what brought me to RIPolitics but it was the links to articles and tweets that kept me around. Arguing about politics doesn't appeal to me at all, but the forum was a great resource for stuff I cased about. I like your idea for the front page. I guess there are curated news sites or you can personalize google news and stuff like that, but I never use that ****, but would definiitely browse a front page like that on Unstuck. I bet there's even a local weather plugin. And god damn this current software is awful. If you son't want nested quotes, fine, but don't show the entire quote in the Preview/BBCode only to not display it.
I've more or less been the same way for the past couple years. The forum's biggest value to me is as an information aggregator and filter. One potential hurdle is that you start running into copyright issues real quick with an aggregation site, and the holders will enforce it if you're running ads or trying to commercialize it some way. Some workarounds like rewriting headlines and paraphrasing excerpts would probably be needed. There's no way you could put links and excerpts on a regular webpage like we do in the forum threads without getting smacked with cease and desist letters. |
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Post by gregorio on Jun 11, 2019 0:06:50 GMT
I don't know if something like This plugin, which fetches content and displays headline and description, is useful. From the live demo, if you click the "+" it displays the entire article, I assume without violating copyright. Not sure if you can manually control which articles to display or if it has to read it from a feed. |
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Post by zikzak on Jun 11, 2019 0:31:39 GMT
Does that even work with outside sources like a WaPo article? I've looked at a bunch of different news sites and quite a few of them have JSON feeds or similar available, but the key phrase is 'non-commercial use'. Probably the most awesome is newsapi.org/ You can basically embed any custom news search right on your site, but if you commercialize it it's $450/month. |
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Post by microbet on Jun 11, 2019 1:10:30 GMT
I don't think we should necessarily aspire to have ads. If we have some satellite business - blogs, podcasts or whatever - maybe they can be commercial, but be sufficiently segregated that there's a clear enough non-commercial space for stuff like that.
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Post by zikzak on Jun 11, 2019 1:19:52 GMT
That's what I'm talking about for this crowd sourced news aggregation thing. It wouldn't be part of the forum.
As far as the forum goes, this whole 'let's not try to raise revenue or offer anybody an incentive to do anything' doesn't seem like a winning plan to me.
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Post by zikzak on Jun 11, 2019 1:27:10 GMT
That was my god post? How underwhelming.
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Post by microbet on Jun 11, 2019 1:37:56 GMT
That's what I'm talking about for this crowd sourced news aggregation thing. It wouldn't be part of the forum. As far as the forum goes, this whole 'let's not try to raise revenue or offer anybody an incentive to do anything' doesn't seem like a winning plan to me. There's some combination of you not having enough imagination and me having too much. |
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Post by zikzak on Jun 11, 2019 2:07:29 GMT
Imagining things doesn't make them real.
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Post by microbet on Jun 11, 2019 2:43:23 GMT
Negative waves have been a big road block. I have renewed determination though.
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Post by lapka on Jun 11, 2019 9:49:34 GMT
Negative waves have been a big road block. I have renewed determination though. They have. And the thing is that when they start going it is bigger threshold to get again some enthusiasm.  But micro has somehow this pulling one inside personality.
I sooooo agree with zak that it has to be some incentive for people to do something. I would say even more, it needs to be some kind of incentive to even just keep posting. I did some stuff to the point where "incentive of learning something new" was bigger than negative waves. I don't believe that this will ever be a monetary success, so that is kinda zero incentive for me. Social stuff, feeling of fun, feeling of doing something cool in a cool group, that is what hopefully can be revived.
And clearly politics discussions have a zero pull on me. For me it is more social stuff, feeling of community and so. I like it to be in a nerdy crowd.
So I will try to lobby for discourse, read today through all tech-threads, I am behind on and think if I can contribute something to the tech-stuff.
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Post by cuserounder on Jun 15, 2019 23:49:51 GMT
zan nen We already have a full list of unstuckers who have said they are willing to put their name on a hosting agreement. It is: microbet zikzak idk what microbet's requirements would be. Mine are roughly (and still very open to further discussion) that I be allowed to raise funds as I saw fit and return a significant chunk of any net revenue to myself. In return, I would operate under community guidance, allow the community to organize internally however it saw fit, I would return some percentage of net revenue to moderators, co-admins and anybody else doing real work, and it would only be for a set term to be renewed or canceled per community wishes. I wouldn't need any up-front funds or legal advice to do this, just community approval. And to be clear, I am not currently proposing this. It is a rough draft of my hypothetical future proposal should everything else truly and completely fail. Maybe it would be good if microbet and anybody else who would also be willing to take on this responsibility were to step forward and state what their requirements would be. I am willing to put my name on something, although I think it would be wiser for the group of Unstuckers putting their name on something to create some sort of LLC or something to offer a layer of protection. My requirements are roughly similar to yours - keeping a significant chunk of revenue for myself (and the other people owning/working on the site) and returning a percentage to the community and/or good causes the community cared about. I'd want to operate under community guidance, allow for internal organization, etc... I would be disappointed if someone else did that by themselves and I wasn't a part of it, and I think there are a group of us who have the right to feel the same way, you and micro being part of that group. My thought when I left for the WSOP was to see what happened with the horizontal structure and go from there, it didn't seem like it was going to get off the ground - and so far from what I've caught up on ITT, it still hasn't. I think we need a group of us who the community trusts with the keys and in terms of ownership style to take the reigns and move forward. Any significant contribution from me would have to be after mid-July. I believe the Main Event/WSOP ends July 17 or 18. |
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Post by microbet on Jun 16, 2019 0:32:22 GMT
zan nen We already have a full list of unstuckers who have said they are willing to put their name on a hosting agreement. It is: microbet zikzak idk what microbet's requirements would be. Mine are roughly (and still very open to further discussion) that I be allowed to raise funds as I saw fit and return a significant chunk of any net revenue to myself. In return, I would operate under community guidance, allow the community to organize internally however it saw fit, I would return some percentage of net revenue to moderators, co-admins and anybody else doing real work, and it would only be for a set term to be renewed or canceled per community wishes. I wouldn't need any up-front funds or legal advice to do this, just community approval. And to be clear, I am not currently proposing this. It is a rough draft of my hypothetical future proposal should everything else truly and completely fail. Maybe it would be good if microbet and anybody else who would also be willing to take on this responsibility were to step forward and state what their requirements would be. I am willing to put my name on something, although I think it would be wiser for the group of Unstuckers putting their name on something to create some sort of LLC or something to offer a layer of protection. My requirements are roughly similar to yours - keeping a significant chunk of revenue for myself (and the other people owning/working on the site) and returning a percentage to the community and/or good causes the community cared about. I'd want to operate under community guidance, allow for internal organization, etc... I would be disappointed if someone else did that by themselves and I wasn't a part of it, and I think there are a group of us who have the right to feel the same way, you and micro being part of that group. My thought when I left for the WSOP was to see what happened with the horizontal structure and go from there, it didn't seem like it was going to get off the ground - and so far from what I've caught up on ITT, it still hasn't. I think we need a group of us who the community trusts with the keys and in terms of ownership style to take the reigns and move forward. Any significant contribution from me would have to be after mid-July. I believe the Main Event/WSOP ends July 17 or 18. I think we're on a path to being ready to move, having more information than ever about how people feel and what might work, and then seeing if the people who want to take part in the hosting figure out if and how they can work together on something pretty quickly and still keep the operation of the site driven/managed by the community or at least include people who want to be part of that, but not of owning/hosting. Right after the WSOP is probably pretty good timing for that discussion. |
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Post by zikzak on Jun 16, 2019 2:16:01 GMT
Waiting yet another month before anything even starts to happen doesn't sound optimal to me. We've already pissed away a huge amount of energy and enthusiasm. There's not much left in the tank.
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Post by microbet on Jun 16, 2019 2:22:41 GMT
Waiting yet another month before anything even starts to happen doesn't sound optimal to me. We've already pissed away a huge amount of energy and enthusiasm. There's not much left in the tank. It's fine. We have to get the domain here, coordinate with simplicitus who isn't around much, let the domain propagate, let people get their bookmarks updated, people are continuing to play with Discourse - I've sent 3 invites today. We'll have a logo and maybe t-shirts going. We can take a minute to set up the new site with the right forums and the most popular threads to minimize the shock. We can even start this without any real agreement set. It's not a big deal. You're free hosting is ending early in July, cuse is back shortly after that. It's all working out beautifully. |
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Post by zikzak on Jun 16, 2019 2:34:22 GMT
What free hosting? I've been paying out of pocket for this.
And that schedule optimistically sets up, what, a late August launch date? I don't know who you expect to still be around to care at that point. I doubt I will be.
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Post by microbet on Jun 16, 2019 2:46:37 GMT
What free hosting? I've been paying out of pocket for this. And that schedule optimistically sets up, what, a late August launch date? I don't know who you expect to still be around to care at that point. I doubt I will be. Sorry, paid hosting. I think that was a late July launch date, but what's the big diff? I expect people to be around. |
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Post by zikzak on Jun 16, 2019 2:48:05 GMT
Who?
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Post by cuserounder on Jun 16, 2019 2:51:56 GMT
Waiting yet another month before anything even starts to happen doesn't sound optimal to me. We've already pissed away a huge amount of energy and enthusiasm. There's not much left in the tank. I was a big proponent of going quickly right after we moved, but I couldn't get enough consensus behind that and now there's nothing I can do personally until after the WSOP. It seems like after that it could be a relatively quick process: 1. Pick our ownership group - seems like this can happen in the interim. 2. Set up some sort of LLC - we have a ton of lawyers and/or could use a free service, it seems like it shouldn't be too complicated. 3. Finish testing the new site, work together on that to make sure our ideas/goals are all aligned. 4. Get the domain from simplicitus and point it to the new site. (Could be pointed to this in the interim.) 5. Move everyone. 6. (Or part of 3) Come to an agreement among ownership on ads/revenue and responsibilities moving forward. This will include planning for drawing in new traffic, generating content, generating revenue, and keeping the forums running smoothly. I mean, is there concern of losing users here in the mean time? Cause a few people were very adamant it was no big deal and we could wait on this forum for months/years and be just fine... It seems unlikely to me that the tipping point on this is within the next month, but I do think it's important to not be wasting much more time than we have to. Ideally we'd be moved before the 2020 primary really heats up, as that could be a source for a lot of traffic. For what it's worth, after the WSOP is over I go from having no time available to some time available. After I get back east (about two more weeks), I can probably spare 15-20 hours a week without too much trouble, maybe 30+ for a couple weeks while we get it off the ground. |
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Post by zikzak on Jun 16, 2019 3:07:55 GMT
I think you are grossly underestimating 1-3 and 6.
I am not so concerned about losing users (at least not yet) as I am with losing people willing to do the actual work required to get a new site up and running. Because most of them have already quit.
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Post by microbet on Jun 16, 2019 3:16:32 GMT
There will be people to do it. I don't think Loden quit. Irishrunner is interested. Shame_Trolly too. I'll do it. Hopefully you'll do it. It will happen.
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Post by lapka on Jun 16, 2019 9:26:18 GMT
I agree with zak. Cuse underestimates strongly a lot of stuff.
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Post by zikzak on Jun 16, 2019 11:55:30 GMT
1. Pick our ownership group - seems like this can happen in the interim. Well, we can start with this right now and see how it goes. Let's try to figure out who owns this community, in what percentages, and then take that to the rest of the users and see if they agree. I am pretty skeptical anything useful will come of this but I am willing to try. I'll go first. If this community is to be owned by a small number of people, I think ownership percentages should be based on actual work performed. |
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Post by microbet on Jun 16, 2019 16:01:10 GMT
1. Pick our ownership group - seems like this can happen in the interim. Well, we can start with this right now and see how it goes. Let's try to figure out who owns this community, in what percentages, and then take that to the rest of the users and see if they agree. I am pretty skeptical anything useful will come of this but I am willing to try. I'll go first. If this community is to be owned by a small number of people, I think ownership percentages should be based on actual work performed. Very difficult imo. Equal ownership. Each owner commits to a certain number of hours and works those, no more, no less. Sure, we can be flexible, like I work 2x this week and vacation next week, but we commit to something realistic for everyone involved. Perhaps we split of projects if someone wants to do more. Like, I'm developing the podcast site entirely on my own, or with another group, and ownership of that element is completely separate. And then spend the extra time on that. I've been involved in a lot of business partnerships and the problem with minority owners is that they are paralyzed by having no authority and that translates to no responsibility or initiative. Imo that's been a bigger problem here than laziness. People have thought they have no authority, legitimacy etc, so they threw their hands up. Also, I don't think the model that this group "owns" Unstuck as opposed to owns a managed Discourse hosting company and has Unstuck as a client is better. I think it's worse. But, I wouldn't roadblock it if the other way can't happen. |
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Post by zikzak on Jun 16, 2019 17:10:03 GMT
Equal ownership. Each owner commits to a certain number of hours and works those, no more, no less. Sure, we can be flexible, like I work 2x this week and vacation next week, but we commit to something realistic for everyone involved. This seems like it's going to set the ceiling at whatever the least interested/motivated owner feels like doing. It also assumes everybody is going to have the same ideas of how much should be done. zan nen proposed an out-of-the-box setup and then doing absolutely nothing for 6 months, which is just absurd to me. We already have user requests for more and better navigation options, which is going to require writing a custom plugin (or at least a widget) in ember.js. Who's doing that? How do you divide that up at X hours a week? Perhaps we split of projects if someone wants to do more. Like, I'm developing the podcast site entirely on my own, or with another group, and ownership of that element is completely separate. And then spend the extra time on that. I'm already taking this approach with the crowdsourced news aggregation thingy I'm working on. If it turns out OK and the community wants to have it linked to the forum, great. If not, OK. I'm open to collaboration if anybody is interested and it would absolutely need more people involved if it goes live, but I'm not subjecting it to any of this forum ownership torture. I've been involved in a lot of business partnerships and the problem with minority owners is that they are paralyzed by having no authority and that translates to no responsibility or initiative. Imo that's been a bigger problem here than laziness. People have thought they have no authority, legitimacy etc, so they threw their hands up. You have a much more optimistic view of human nature than I do. Also, I don't think the model that this group "owns" Unstuck as opposed to owns a managed Discourse hosting company and has Unstuck as a client is better. I think it's worse. But, I wouldn't roadblock it if the other way can't happen. I agree with this completely. I was going with that language because that seemed to be how cuse saw things. |
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Post by zikzak on Jun 16, 2019 17:12:20 GMT
The X hours a week thing seems better suited to a stable site that's already running smoothly. I think something else needs to be done in a situation where there is still a lot of dev work to be done and an acute shortage of people who seem willing to put in the time.
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Post by microbet on Jun 16, 2019 17:27:55 GMT
zz,
Bascially no one but you even had the opportunity to do any dev work on your Discourse site. Either people needed root on your machine or they had to spin a competing Discourse server and work totally uncoordinated from you. No surprise that no one but you did any dev work on Discourse (though Lapka and I did both do a Discourse installation, but there wasn't really any reason to pursue that further).
Are we supposed to operate on time clocks? Is ownership percentage going to change on a weekly basis? Maybe we could start out with X hrs/week for you and Y hrs/week for me (or whoever) and divide up ownership that way and have people stick to it. Or maybe it could be equal, but some people are front loaded on the dev stuff, like, I'm working A LOT for this month or so, so you are on general duty (on call for problems etc) for like the rest of the year.
Basically if the 4 people can't expect each other to be tolerably close to pulling their own weight then they shouldn't enter a partnership with each other.
"This seems like it's going to set the ceiling at whatever the least interested/motivated owner feels like doing." That should read "is willing to commit to do" instead of "feels like doing". I'm not punching a time-clock here. No one should enter this agreement if they aren't willing to commit to something and follow through and no one should partner with anyone if they don't trust that they'll do it.
Maybe the amount of work people can commit to won't allow for the development of things like new navigation features in any short time frame. Maybe new navigation feature takes 6 months to put out. Maybe that's not a deal killer?
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But micro has somehow this pulling one inside personality. 