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Post by clovis8 on May 7, 2019 23:39:03 GMT
I appreciate the desire for consensus, a flat structure and organic management but for a new entity this seems like a very high bar to clear as evidenced by the difficulty in getting this committee going.
My suggestions are;
1) of the 22 members of this committee we run a site wide vote to choose 3-4 to actually make initial decisions. When this group deems it appropriate they can hold a committee wide or even site wide vote. People would have to nominate themselves to be among the 3-4.
2) a member of this 3-4 volunteers to draft interim guidelines for the site to operate under for 6 months. The committee votes on these.
3) we identify the 3 main issues we need addressed to open the permanent site and finalize those
4) points 1-3 are complete By the end of May.
5) it is assumed in 6 months, once the new site is up, all members of this committee and the 3-4 resign and a new committee is formed.
This will allow us to at least get started. We can then develop a flatter consensus model.
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Post by microbet on May 7, 2019 23:57:36 GMT
Are non-committee members allowed to post in these threads?
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Post by whosnext on May 8, 2019 0:01:04 GMT
Yes, most certainly.
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Post by microbet on May 8, 2019 0:22:48 GMT
Ok, just wondering. Keep up the good work.
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Post by lapka on May 8, 2019 5:09:38 GMT
I think that no one will want to be one of this 3-4. May be Zan and mrWookiee will, but then we are where we are right now. But if I am wrong and there are 3~4 volunteers,
I completely support the OP
I have a slightly different suggestion because right now everything somehow works: We all together identify one really important question to move forward and try to solve it.
The process is that everyone can make suggestions for ONE question AND suggestion for a solution (it doesn't have to be thought out and figured out solution, but something) and then we
1. Make a poll to choose about which question we try to solve
2. Make a thread where everyone can post suggestions for a solution.
My question I would like to be solved fast is: What we are legally? Reading around in the forum delivers two ideas: coop, non-profit organization. I would have to read-up on how this structures work to deliver here more.
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Post by Rexx14 on May 8, 2019 5:12:31 GMT
I'd like to know more about what we are also and I think it's fundamental to moving forward.
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Post by lapka on May 8, 2019 5:25:26 GMT
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Post by lapka on May 8, 2019 15:59:25 GMT
I have looked at how to create a coop and how to create a non-profit. It all is actually not sooo complicated.
- For both structures you need a founding board, probably with a lot less than 23 people, who have a lot more similar understanding about how things should be done than it is here.
- The founding board decides on the basic philosophy for non-profit or basic business idea of coop and adopts a set of bylaws. It is actually absolutely uncomplicated, because we don't need to create a wheel. There are lot of bylaw examples on the internet for both structures. We would need only to adjust and then have someone who is a lawyer to read over it.
- With these bylaws and basic idea and a name coop/non-profit can be incorporated. And from that point on it is a legal entity.
From that point on it can hopefully start normal functioning.
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Post by lapka on May 9, 2019 10:03:38 GMT
So for now we have at least four people supporting the idea that we should kinda push to get out as a result some kind of legal incorporation, so that we have a clear definite answer to the question:
"What are we?"
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Post by kre8tive on May 9, 2019 11:26:49 GMT
It seems like we have a case of "too many executives not enough chiefs", streamlining the governing body might not be a bad idea.
I was thinking of perhaps we could nominate 3-5 active participants to reach concensus on the issues that are getting bogged down by the size of the committee and hopefully mitigate the degree of difficulty we are experiencing getting anything done.
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Post by zikzak on May 9, 2019 12:11:06 GMT
As somebody who isn't on the committee, it sounds to me like what zan nen mentioned about caucusing is the answer you're looking for:
At any point, any group of peeps may freely associate, which is also often called a "caucus". These caucuses can each self-select their own participants, and pick their own internal process. If any of these caucuses come up with a proposal, any member of this committee can then officially make that proposal to this committee as an individual.
Like, the few of you who are really into figuring out consensus and quorum and whatever should just go do that on your own and then come back to the committee as a whole when you have a more fleshed out proposal.
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Post by lapka on May 9, 2019 12:16:53 GMT
OK. that is also kinda in agreement with OP here. What about I nominate: kre8tive, rexx, whosnext, kerowo, curse, myself, Louis Cyphre, and also whoelse thinks that what is going on right now is kinda frustrating and it would be a cool idea to answer the question What are we? and have some kind of legal incorporation. (edit: you all can clearly decline. I sooooo get it. That is sooo out of hand) I am not such a saint like greg is. He absolutely deserves some kind of badge or so for digging through all that here. Here is my suggestion for the work plan: 1. I am so not gonna read any posts longer than 10 lines and any sentences longer than three lines. Plain because I believe that any thought can be put in this format, no matter how complicated. And hell, we all have a job and that whole business is supposed to increase our quality of life and not to frustrate the shit of everyone. 2. I have for now two variants in my head for legal incorporation: coop and non-profit. I have a rough idea how to set-up both. I am very open for any other ideas of incorporation. 3. I think that we need a public poll with options to this And I would try as hard as possible to increase the voting participation and to encourage people to make an informed decision, but whoever votes then is the quorum 4 I suggest to plain take a set of bylaws from the internet to whatever form will be chosen and adjust them a little bit for our needs. There are a lot of examples.
5. Then we will again try to get an approval for the bylaws from general population with the same procedure like in 3. 6. We will have a lawyer if necessary, a paid one, to look over the bylaws and to register the entity with authorities.
That's it.
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Post by microbet on May 9, 2019 13:46:58 GMT
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Post by lapka on May 9, 2019 14:14:53 GMT
But you are OK with "non-profit"? Right?
Anything with the idea to get any profit leads to a ton of complications issues.
I think, that for you, (please correct me if I am wrong) it is rather the important issue that the central decisions are decided by the meeting of members and not by the board of directors or any steering committee.
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Post by microbet on May 9, 2019 14:27:55 GMT
But you are OK with "non-profit"? Right?
Anything with the idea to get any profit leads to a ton of complications issues.
I think, that for you, (please correct me if I am wrong) it is rather the important issue that the central decisions are decided by the meeting of members and not by the board of directors or any steering committee.
Cooperative control of the site is more important. Since there's a danger (being overcome) of paralysis through democracy, I'd just say that regardless of where decisions are made, the buck stops with the members and all decisions are overturnable. I'm ok with non-profit, but inclined against. I'm not sure what the advantage or purpose is. Are we looking to be able to receive tax deductible donations? Are we applying for some government program for non-profits? If there's no purpose, why handcuff ourselves? Down the line if there's revenue we may well want to issue small dividends like REI does. It's likely there will be no profit though, so that's pretty non-profit anyway. |
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Post by lapka on May 9, 2019 14:45:47 GMT
But you are OK with "non-profit"? Right?
Anything with the idea to get any profit leads to a ton of complications issues.
I think, that for you, (please correct me if I am wrong) it is rather the important issue that the central decisions are decided by the meeting of members and not by the board of directors or any steering committee.
Cooperative control of the site is more important. Since there's a danger (being overcome) of paralysis through democracy, I'd just say that regardless of where decisions are made, the buck stops with the members and all decisions are overturnable.
I'm ok with non-profit, but inclined against. I'm not sure what the advantage or purpose is. Are we looking to be able to receive tax deductible donations? Are we applying for some government program for non-profits? If there's no purpose, why handcuff ourselves? Down the line if there's revenue we may well want to issue small dividends like REI does. It's likely there will be no profit though, so that's pretty non-profit anyway. All my hesitation is based in the creation of the bylaws ans so..... Basically I think that following questions will be a lot more controversial for profit coop: How are shares distributed? How are votes distributed? Are we closed or open membership? How the money is gonna be spend? Basically do mods or board of directors or admins get any money and how much? I mean..... money distorts a lot of things.
But it is also not so that I am vehemently opposed. I am currently trying to form an opinion about what I find really better. And if we have any opportunity/possibility to get some funding from state, I am so for that.
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Post by microbet on May 9, 2019 14:58:21 GMT
Non-profits have all those problems too. Being a non-prof doesn't mean we can't pay admins or mods. Still need by-laws outlining membership and control. There *may* be some grants available if we're a non-profit that wouldn't otherwise be available, but finding them and applying for them is a job in and of itself (and it was my job for like 3 years back in the 90s).
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Post by lapka on May 9, 2019 16:58:04 GMT
Non-profits have all those problems too. Being a non-prof doesn't mean we can't pay admins or mods. Still need by-laws outlining membership and control. There *may* be some grants available if we're a non-profit that wouldn't otherwise be available, but finding them and applying for them is a job in and of itself (and it was my job for like 3 years back in the 90s). I completely agree that in the essence it is very similar. The only difference is that with profit people will focus on potentially huge dividends  , with non-profit there are no dividends. But I need to invest a couple of more hours in reading-up. Right now I have no argumentatively well formed opinion on that. |
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Post by kerowo on May 9, 2019 18:02:32 GMT
Non-profit fits with our intentions better than for-profit does.
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Post by kre8tive on May 9, 2019 18:12:01 GMT
I think non-profit is the way to go as well and I accept the nom to participate in the caucus lapka suggested. I think we should brainstorm the issues needed to be ratified first.
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Post by microbet on May 9, 2019 18:37:21 GMT
Ok, but non-prof is more difficult, not less. We can still make charitable donations with revenue as a for-profit. The issue is more about whether we can receive charitable donations.
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Post by kerowo on May 9, 2019 19:03:43 GMT
Any business can receive donations, they are only tax deductible for the doner if you are set up as a 501(c). A simple google search shows we should get a lawyer...
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Post by lapka on May 9, 2019 20:57:08 GMT
I would say the homework for everyone here is to read through first 5 google hits on (differences non-profit and coop). Bonus is to read through non-profit coop. Anyone who feels that you really understood it, is very welcome to provide a summary here. kerowo Since you said something about intentions, I would say you provide a summary on what are our intentions. |
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Post by kerowo on May 9, 2019 21:10:19 GMT
Run a politics focused forum as a steppingstone to hosting additional content which we hope to be successful enough to be able to donate money to causes and candidates important to the community.
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Post by lapka on May 9, 2019 21:55:40 GMT
The more I read the more I join micro in his opinion I will try to summarize what I read to this point: Coops are owned by their members. Non-profit are owned by no one and led by the board of directors. Coops are accountable only to their members. That one is a pretty big deal exactly for keeping the whatever we do in alignment with our values. As a coop you are allowed to do a lot more stuff than as non-profit.
Basically with a coop you can do everything that you can do with non-profit and a little more.
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Post by lapka on May 9, 2019 21:58:23 GMT
Run a politics focused forum as a steppingstone to hosting additional content which we hope to be successful enough to be able to donate money to causes and candidates important to the community. That absolutely fits in the idea of coop. |
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Post by microbet on May 10, 2019 0:45:14 GMT
Run a politics focused forum as a steppingstone to hosting additional content which we hope to be successful enough to be able to donate money to causes and candidates important to the community. I don't mind donating to people, but I think that's a pretty controversial idea for what the purpose here is. |
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Post by kerowo on May 10, 2019 0:47:42 GMT
I'm synthesizing what I've heard talked about by people on the governance committee and threads on what we want the forum to be.
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Post by microbet on May 10, 2019 0:54:08 GMT
Unless there's a specific reason, like we will receive tax deductible donations (yeah, profit companies can get donations, but non-profs elect to be non-profs to get donations) or a specific program we aim to take advantage of, it is more trouble to be a non-prof. I was a consultant doing grant writing for non-profits for 3 years and it's more complicated to be a non-profit. Being a non-profit was constraining on things they were able to do, even things that made a lot of sense and would save them a lot of money. And it opens us up to new liabilities as well if we fuck that up.
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Post by Marksman on May 10, 2019 3:56:53 GMT
Yeah non profit is more work, more complicated more management and more potential risks. What benefits for doing that offset those negatives?
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, with non-profit there are no dividends. But I need to invest a couple of more hours in reading-up. Right now I have no argumentatively well formed opinion on that. 
